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Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
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 03/08/2010 08:29 AM
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Mangisda
Joined: 01/07/2007
Posts: 37
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Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
Good day everyone,
I have heard and experienced firsthand the term "binding" on lever drag reels when the drag is pushed beyond its designed performance limits. I took apart to service my Avet 2-speed LX yesterday. This reel has served me well.
Taking the reel apart one of my goals is to understand where binding occurs mechanically (not to mention servicing is an additional excuse to hold a fishing reel to cure an itch in the dead of winter here in Canada waiting for my July SD fishing trip). The itch is gone, for now, but I cannot "see" where the binding happens  .
As I mentioned, using the LX within its design parameters there is none of the binding. I asked this just to understand the mechanics  .
If twin discs are used as in Accurates, can I conclude that there is twice the surface area of the drags and therefore more braking power and therefore less stress on the mechanical parts that causes the binding?
PLEASE it is not my intention to start an Accurate vs. Avet vs. Reel of the World debate. I just want to be enlightened. Thank to all replies in advance.
This post edited by Mangisda 03/08/2010
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03/08/2010 09:48 AM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16163
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
Good question Mangisda.
On many lever drag reels, particularly those of older design, when the drag preset is cranked up beyond the design parameters of the line weight the reel was designed to handle, it causes the bearings to "bind". This is due to their being compressed sideways by the excess drag pressure. This not only affects the free spool capability of the reel, but can also be felt in the handle "binding up" or becoming harder to turn as more drag pressure is applied. (On some reels this excess compression also afects the trhust bearing in the side plate.)
This is the reason for the internal "sleeves" that are placed between the spool bearings now in many factory reels, and the after market work done on many older reels to install one. The sleeve allows a higher drag pressure without the sideways pressure on the bearings affecting their performance.
Hope this helps.
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
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03/08/2010 09:50 AM
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Hawk
Moderator
Joined: 12/31/1999
Posts: 9034
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
I believe the binding that is being referred to is the side loading that is applied to the spool bearings that results in making it difficult to crank the reel and spoiled the free spool. The effectiveness of the bearings is reduced by this additional pressure. That is my understanding of what is happening.
Cofe Products in San Diego came up with the first effective method to practically eliminate this problem with the "Free Spooler". It is a tube that is inserted inside the spool spindle and runs the length between the bearings. Precision measured for each individual reel, it acts as a virtual full length thrust washer to relieve the side pressure against the bearings when the drag is increased.
Looks like Chris and I were writing at the same time
This post edited by Hawk 03/08/2010
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03/08/2010 11:24 AM
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MarkT
Moderator
The Tackle Board
Joined: 04/22/2007
Posts: 7031
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
I think the problem is in how leverdrags work. When you push the lever to strike the spool/drag washer moves into the drag plate. This puts a side load on the right spool bearing which then binds under the pressure of excessive drag.
Mark
When I was your age Pluto was a Planet
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 03/08/2010 01:42 PM
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Mangisda
Joined: 01/07/2007
Posts: 37
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
Thanks Baja D, Hawk, and Mark T.
So it is pressure on the spool bearings that causes the binding. I falsely thought it was pressure on the bearings that support the drive gears and how could that be? Learned something today.
One more question please. Accurates in mind, can I say that there is less distortion on the spool bearings, because there is less pressure on the spool (due to twin discs) to achieve the desired drag setting?
This post edited by Mangisda 03/08/2010
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03/08/2010 05:23 PM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16163
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
Mangisda wrote:
Thanks Baja D, Hawk, and Mark T.
You are most welcome!
Mangisda wrote:
So it is pressure on the spool bearings that causes the binding. I falsely thought it was pressure on the bearings that support the drive gears and how could that be? Learned something today.
One more question please. Accurates in mind, can I say that there is less distortion on the spool bearings, because there is less pressure on the spool (due to twin discs) to achieve the desired drag setting?
While I have seen a few reports of Accurate reels binding at extreme drag settings, this was primarily on older models, and not as severely as on other makes of reels.
As Mark mentions, I think it is just the nature of the beast.
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
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03/08/2010 06:16 PM
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bigfishsato
Joined: 11/06/2008
Posts: 47
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
I'm going to have sleeves added to my ADT 12 & 30 Accurate by Cal, as I've been told that they do not come that way out of the box. Also, I will have the drag curve adjusted on both reels to fight some super cows come next fall. Most all reels are pretty good out of the box but not perfect for everything no matter the sticker price.
garry
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03/09/2010 07:47 AM
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Dr Rob
Joined: 06/08/2007
Posts: 59
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
I can't be bothered to write a lengthy explanation.
Freespool sleeves do nothing at all to aid or improve drag or binding. Nothing.
They improve freespool. This is why they are called f r e e s p o o l sleeves, and not called drag sleeves. The spacer relieves axial pressure put upon the spool bearings by the drag washer seperating spring. This allows the bearings to roll easier when the reel is in f r e e s p o o l.
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03/09/2010 08:39 AM
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JL
Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 807
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
Yes, the sleeve takes the side pressure off the spool bearings. Binding on the handle has nothing to do with the sleeve. It is the gear side plate bearing in the right sideplate that is being overloaded, thus causing the binding.
JL
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03/09/2010 11:44 AM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16163
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
Perhaps you also noticed that I mentioned this earlier? (Please excuse the typos.)
>>"(On some reels this excess compression also afects the trhust bearing in the side plate.)"<<
In any case, perhasp you and Dr Rob would tell us, mechanically speaking, why after a "free spooler" sleeve is installed so a higher drag setting can be achieved, that the reel it was installed in quite often experiences less or even no more binding?
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
This post edited by Baja Dreamer 03/09/2010
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03/09/2010 12:18 PM
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JL
Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 807
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
Two completely different issues here. The sleeve counter-acts the lateral force applied to the bearings within the spool. Because of the sleeve, the spool bearings therefore has no side pressure, thus spin easier.
The binding has to do with the entire spool assembly where the pinion gear that are on the shaft being forced excessively on to the right sideplate bearing, thus causing the binding.
JL
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03/09/2010 12:32 PM
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MarkT
Moderator
The Tackle Board
Joined: 04/22/2007
Posts: 7031
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
There are two kinds of binding. I think the OP is talking about the handle binding you get on Avets when you crank the drag up. The other kind (which we were actually addressing) is the lack of freespool due to high drag which is caused by an axial load on the spool bearing and is addressed by a sleeve. You can sleeve an Avet all you want and it will still be hard to crank under heavy drag due to the issue that JL is describing.
Mark
When I was your age Pluto was a Planet
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03/09/2010 01:04 PM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16163
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
MarkT wrote:
There are two kinds of binding. I think the OP is talking about the handle binding you get on Avets when you crank the drag up. The other kind (which we were actually addressing) is the lack of freespool due to high drag which is caused by an axial load on the spool bearing and is addressed by a sleeve. You can sleeve an Avet all you want and it will still be hard to crank under heavy drag due to the issue that JL is describing.
That I agree with Mark. (About the Avets in particular.)
When spool bearings are loaded enough in the manner described, that it affects the freespool of the reel, and those bearings aren't turning as they should as a result, this can also be felt in the handle not turning properly.
I don't know how many reels I've had to replace corroded or brinelled spool bearings on that were causing problems with the reel, not just in rough feel, but binding as well. Everything that relates to the spool shaft and the spool not turning properly can also be felt through the handle as roughness or binding. When something is done to minimize or eliminate that, (Like adding a sleeve.), there is a felt difference. The thrust bearings have always been a problem on particular reels though, like a TLD or a TLD II.
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
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03/10/2010 09:41 AM
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bigfishsato
Joined: 11/06/2008
Posts: 47
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re: Mechanical explanation of Binding - please enlighten me
One thing to keep in mind about most all bearings from factory reels, they do not have side load bearings. Side load bearings are very expensive bearings which will accept side load pressures such as you will find in a lever drag reel. The bearings you most likely find in a factory reel are top load bearings which are made take the pressure from the circumference of the bearing. Therefore when you crank up the pressure on your drag the load is then transfered to the sides or flat portion of the bearing which exerts pressure on the side plates and bearing inside the bearing. Having free spool sleeve relieves the pressure there fore allowing better free spool. The same side load problem will exist on the right side plate bearing under the drag cam when too much pressure is applied to that bearing. Most times I have found that bearing to go bad before the others if heavy drags have been used on that reel. I have bee told that side load bearings for the use we want could be in the $50-$100 each.
Garry
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