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Predator and Prey
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 03/19/2009 10:39 PM
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HD
Joined: 04/21/2007
Posts: 10241
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Predator and Prey
In reading various hunting boards, it has become apparent that the need for some defensive weapons is fairly standard. Guys are carrying big Bowie knives and sidearms on em...many have called in "longtails" and the stories suggest that predator hunting can get quite exciting at times. One guy said he's more afraid of stumbling into some armed guy's pot farm. Okay...I get it.
I have a Glock 22 (40 cal) and a 4th generation molded holster but I think it would be quite uncomfortable while hunting. I too think a waist or thigh set-up would dirty the gun and/or get in my way. Wearing the pistol higher would seem a good way to go, especially in brush. Is there a shoulder hoster that's ideal or do all the options have a downside? This one looked okay except that the mag pouches might get in the way.
http://www.combathunting.com/cart.cgi?group=0&child=4700
I learned something else about the big Calif. cats. Under California's lion preservation agreement, the state was supposed to encumber $30 million a year for 30 years as lion haibat land purchase. The idea was to restablished state-owned habitat to prevent any human development in the prescribed areas. So far only a fraction of the funding has been spent for lion land and what has been purchased is less land than one lion naturally requires.
Thanks you political hacks!
Attn: Dental Shoppers
You can advertise to every dentist in Calif. for $20.
Visit www.DentalTrader.com
This post edited by HD 03/20/2009
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03/20/2009 09:12 AM
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Pelagic Hunter
Joined: 04/20/2007
Posts: 4247
Location: Huntington Beach
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re: Predator and Prey
Carrying a side arm while hunting in CA is not necessary. I can see possibly carrying one in Alaska, British Columbia, Yukon Terr, NW Terr, or Montana. Even at that...if you are hunting at those places, you will be hunting with an experienced guide therefore a personal sidearm will not be needed unless it's an ego thing.
This post edited by Pelagic Hunter 03/20/2009
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03/20/2009 09:48 AM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16227
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re: Predator and Prey
Pelagic Hunter wrote:
Carrying a side arm while hunting in CA is not necessary. I can see possibly carrying one in Alaska, British Columbia, Yukon Terr, NW Terr, or Montana. Even at that...if you are hunting at those places, you will be hunting with an experienced guide therefore a personal sidearm will not be needed unless it's an ego thing.
When hunting during any gun season in Klownifornia, I agree. There is no real reason to carry the extra weight, and as I and others have said before, in a stress situation you will likely be more accurate and hit harder with a rifle anyway. Same thing with a shotgun.
Bow season is a different story. I know several folks who are now carrying knives that are much larger than needed for field dressing a deer specifically for the purpose of close defense. In fact, when my daughter took her hunter's saftey course, the instructor recomended doing exactly that specifically when bow hunting.
FISH HARD!
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
This post edited by Baja Dreamer 03/20/2009
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03/20/2009 10:24 AM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16227
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re: Predator and Prey
HD wrote:
In reading various hunting boards, it has become apparent that the need for some defensive weapons is fairly standard. Guys are carrying big Bowie knives and sidearms on em...many have called in "longtails" and the stories suggest that predator hunting can get quite exciting at times. One guy said he's more afraid of stumbling into some armed guy's pot farm. Okay...I get it.
It seems like you have confirmed what I said to you earlier about some of the more interesting encounter possibilities while calling in predators. 
For the places you will most likely be hunting coyotes, I wouldn't worry about the local plantation owners. They like the more remote places in the high country best of all.
Like PH just said, and I concur, having a sidearm during any gun season, even varmint hunting, isn't necessary in Klownifornia. A rifle or shotgun will be much more accurate and effective in a defensive situation.
HD wrote:
I have a Glock 22 (40 cal) and a 4th generation molded holster but I think it would be quite uncomfortable while hunting. I too think a waist or thigh set-up would dirty the gun and/or get in my way. Wearing the pistol higher would seem a good way to go, especially in brush. Is there a shoulder hoster that's ideal or do all the options have a downside? This one looked okay except that the mag pouches might get in the way.
http://www.combathunting.com/cart.cgi?group=0&child=4700
It looks just fine..........for tactical SWAT or military applications! You'll also find that a shoulder holster becomes very uncomfortable when walking any great distance. Most of the guys I know who do carry a sidearm while hunting use a high carry-strong side belt holster. Even with this there is a problem in that most of them also sling their rifles on the same side, so the gun gets in the way.
There is something else you need to be aware of. That is EXACTLY what the carry laws are. As far as I'm aware, you cannot carry concealed while hunting. Also, when hunting in condor country, if you do carry a sidearm, it must have lead free ammo just like your hunting weapon or you are in violation. You cannot even have ammo containing lead in your possession, (Other than .22 rimfire when hunting tree squirrels and rabbits.), when hunting in condor country.
I recall mentioning this to you before, but I did carry a sidearm on one weekend bear trip. The reason I did was because some of the area we hunted was in heavy brush and a handgun was going to be more practical up close. I found that the extra weight was cumbersome and I haven't carried one since when I have a rifle. If I need faster handling in tight places, I use a short lever gun.
Do yourself a favor, leave the hand gun home.
HD wrote:
I learned something else about the big Calif. cats. Under California's lion preservation agreement, the state was supposed to encumber $30 million a year for 30 years as lion haibat land purchase. The idea was to restablished state-owned habitat to prevent any human development in the prescribed areas. So far only a fraction of the funding has been spent for lion land and what has been purchased is less land than one lion naturally requires.
Thanks you political hacks!
Yeah, I knew that too. My question? WTF do they need to do that for with MILLIONS of acres of National Parks, National Forest, and BLM land in this state, that already can't be developed? The lions didn't need ANY special land purchased. Even less when you consider that, if I recall correctly, the average lion has a range of over 200 square miles, and population densities are in many places well ovber that! 
FISH HARD!
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
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03/20/2009 03:06 PM
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Frank_O
Joined: 12/31/1999
Posts: 4298
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re: Predator and Prey
I carried a sidearm one time while hunting and that was a 44 Mag during the blackpowder elk season in Idaho when we were hunting in Grizzly territory. After the first day it stayed in camp, it's just another 4 Lbs of crap to carry
One rifle, one planet, Holland's 375
Founding member of the "Iron Gang"
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03/20/2009 05:42 PM
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WJW
Joined: 04/30/1998
Posts: 11104
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re: Predator and Prey
Dude..you'll be carrying a frigging RIFLE!!!
Why on earth would you ever think of using anything else?
In the first place, NOTHING is going to attack you while predator calling in California. I mean I suppose it's possible that a Mountain Lion could get you, but if you're going to worry about something with odds as long as that, you have no business driving a car to go hunting. You are vastly more likely to be killed in an accident on the way there than being attacked by an unseen lion in such a manner that you don't see it coming and can't use your rifle to defend yourself.
You might call a lion in. That happens on occasion (although never to me  ). But if you do call one in you'll be the one that surprises it. Not the other way around. All you'll have to do is yell at it when you think it's gotten close enough. If it does something other than run, pop it.
As far as worrying about people...practice with your rifle. There's a reason soldiers carry rifles instead of handguns or bowie knives.
The only time I carry a defensive handgun in the wild is when I'm fishing. In Alaska, (when I'm in the boonies or fishing in the middle of the "night") if I'm not carrying a folding stock 12 gauge pump, I'm carrying a .44 mag. In California when I'm fly-fishing I carry .38 detective special in a fanny pack or a Ruger Mark V 22 autoloader in a hip holster.
Bill
If Marlin ate puppies instead of mackerel, we'd all have kennels instead of bait tanks.
This post edited by WJW 03/20/2009
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03/20/2009 05:54 PM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16227
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re: Predator and Prey
Pelagic Hunter wrote:
Carrying a side arm while hunting in CA is not necessary. I can see possibly carrying one in Alaska, British Columbia, Yukon Terr, NW Terr, or Montana. Even at that...if you are hunting at those places, you will be hunting with an experienced guide therefore a personal sidearm will not be needed unless it's an ego thing.
Baja Dreamer wrote:
I recall mentioning this to you before, but I did carry a sidearm on one weekend bear trip. The reason I did was because some of the area we hunted was in heavy brush and a handgun was going to be more practical up close. I found that the extra weight was cumbersome and I haven't carried one since when I have a rifle. If I need faster handling in tight places, I use a short lever gun.
Do yourself a favor, leave the hand gun home.
Frank_O wrote:
I carried a sidearm one time while hunting and that was a 44 Mag during the blackpowder elk season in Idaho when we were hunting in Grizzly territory. After the first day it stayed in camp, it's just another 4 Lbs of crap to carry
WJW wrote:
Dude..you'll be carrying a frigging RIFLE!!!
Why on earth would you ever think of using anything else?
The only time I carry a defensive handgun in the wild is when I'm fishing. In Alaska, (when I'm in the boonies or fishing in the middle of the "night") if I'm not carrying a folding stock 12 gauge pump, I'm carrying a .44 mag. In California when I'm fly-fishing I carry .38 detective special in a fanny pack or a Ruger Mark V 22 autoloader in a hip holster.
Bill
I think we've made the point and now have a consensus on this!  
WJW wrote:
As far as worrying about people...practice with your rifle. There's a reason soldiers carry rifles instead of handguns or bowie knives.
Uh, Bill? Many soldiers, if not most, carry all three in a combat area, but their rifle is their primary weapon. Just thought I'd mention it.
FISH HARD!
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
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03/20/2009 06:08 PM
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WJW
Joined: 04/30/1998
Posts: 11104
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re: Predator and Prey
I thought it was pretty much only officers or MP's that were carrying sidearms???
As far as knives...I know that everybody carries a knife (either a Ka-bar, Cold Steel, Gerber, Strider, or some such), but I haven't heard of anyone carrying a Bowie knife since the Alamo fell.
Bill
If Marlin ate puppies instead of mackerel, we'd all have kennels instead of bait tanks.
This post edited by WJW 03/20/2009
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03/20/2009 07:24 PM
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DockRat
Joined: 10/23/2005
Posts: 2465
Location: Rat Beach
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re: Predator and Prey
The good news is they don't attack BIG boys as much. Keep eating 
List of Mountain Lion Attacks On People in California
June 19 1890 A 7-year-old boy was killed by two lions while playing among oak trees some distance from his home in Quartz Valley, Siskiyou County.
July 5 1909 A rabid lion injured a woman and child in Morgan Hill, Santa Clara County. Both died of rabies.
March 1986 A lion attacked a 5-year-old girl, Laura Small, in Caspers Regional Park, Orange County, resulting in a $2 million court judgment against Orange County. Laura remains blind in one eye and partially paralyzed.
October A 6-year-old boy, Justin Mellon, received minor injuries resulting from a lion attack.
12 March 1992 A 9-year-old boy, Darron Arroyo, was attacked by a cougar as he was hiking on a trail with his two brothers in Gaviota State Park, Santa Barbara County. His father, Steven Arroyo, about a hundred yards behind the boys, heard the screams and saw the lion dragging Darron. Steven rushed toward the cougar, picked up a rock, threw it and struck the lion between the eyes. The lion dropped the boy and retreated. Darron sustained bites to the face and head and scratches to the chest
August 1993 A 6-year-old boy, Devin Foote, was attacked in the Manzano River area of the Los Padres National Forest, Santa Barbara County. This attack is not recognized by the California Department of Fish and Game because injuries were not verified by a physician, nor was the attack site investigated by an agency
September A young cougar bit a 10-year-old girl camping with her family at Paso Picacho Campground in Cuyamaca Rancho State Park. The girl was slightly injured. The mountain lion believed to have attacked the girl was tracked down and killed.
23 April 1994 (Attack #8, death #4) Barbara Schoener, 40, a friend of my sister and a long-distance runner in excellent physical shape, was killed by an 80-pound female mountain lion in Northern California on the American River Canyon trail in the Auburn State Recreation Area. No one observed the attack, and hence there are conflicting hypotheses about what occurred.
Barbara's husband Pete Schoener says that the lion was probably hidden on a ledge above the trail and pounced on Barbara as she passed underneath the lion. The lion knocked her down a slope and she was badly wounded, but she fought the animal with her arms before she was killed. Then the lion dragged her farther before eating most of her body.
The accounts in the paper said that investigators theorize that the lion surprised her by sneaking within 20' behind her on the tight trail and then ambushing Schoener, knocking her 30' down an 80° slope. Indications are she already was badly wounded but briefly fought the animal there before the lion finished the kill.
The trail is part of the Western States 100-Mile Endurance Run trail. Barbara was the first person in California in the 20th Century to die from a mountain lion attack.
The mountain lion may have been protecting its one-month-old cub by "defending" its territory against intruders, or may have "recognized" Barbara as prey because she was "running away" from the lion.
August 16 50-year-old Troy Winslow and his wife Robin, along with 48-year-old Kathleen Strehl, were camping in the yard of a rustic cabin near the isolated hamlet of Dos Rios in Mendocino County, when a fight broke out between their dog and a 2-year-old, 60-pound rabid female mountain lion at 4:30 a.m. The lion retreated under the cabin after they threw rocks at it. Near daybreak, the cougar attacked Kathleen, giving her four puncture wounds in the arm and knocking her to the ground. The others jumped on the cat and Robin stabbed it with a 12-inch kitchen bread knife. The cat bit off Winslow's thumb during the melee when the man grabbed the animal near its mouth
December 10 Iris M. Kenna, a 5-foot-4 and no more than 115 pounds, 56-year-old woman in excellent physical condition, was killed near Cuyamaca Peak at Cuyamaca Rancho State Park while hiking to Cuyamaca Peak alone in the early morning.
March 20 1995 Scott Fike, a 27-year-old cyclist, was bitten and cut by a cougar near Mount Lowe in the Angeles National Forest, on 20 March 1995, and fought the cougar off with rocks. The cougar was then tracked down and killed.
January 8 2004 (Attacks #12 and 13; death #6) 35-year-old Mark Jeffrey Reynolds, an amateur mountain bike racer, was reported as being killed by a mountain lion sometime after 1:25 p.m. at Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park in southern Orange County. His bicycle was later found with the chain unbroken, but off the sprockets. Jim Amormino, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff's Department, speculated that Mark was attacked as he was fixing his bike.
However, the autopsy results apparently show no damage to his neck at all, or any damage indicative of an actual attack that caused his death.
Later the same day, Anne Hjelle, 30, of Santa Ana, a former Marine who works as a fitness instructor, was jumped by the same mountain lion. Anne was attacked a short distance down the trail from Mark's body, which was not visible to her, while she was riding her mountain bicycle. The lion jumped her from a slight rise (~4 feet) on the right hand side of the trail, from under some high brush. The lion quickly had Anne's face in its mouth, despite the presence of Anne's helmet. Her riding companion, Debi Nicholls, was about 30 feet behind Anne and witnessed the attack. Debi threw her bike at the mountain lion, to no avail, then grabbed Anne's legs and screamed as the lion dragged both of them 30 feet down the slope into the brush. The lion kept attacking Anne, alternating between her helmet, face and neck. The screams brought Nils Magnuson, 33, of Long Beach, and Mike Castellano to the scene, who called 911 and scared off the mountain lion by throwing rocks at it.
June 26 27-year-old Shannon Parker of Santa Monica, California, was attacked by a 2-year-old male cougar at about 6:15 p.m. near the Tulare County mountain community of Johnsondale, California, about 15 to 20 miles north of Kernville. Shannon lost her right eye and suffered injuries to her other eye and deep lacerations to her right thigh.
January 24 2007 Hiking in Prairie Creek Redwoods State Park sometime before 3:00 p.m. in Humbolt County 50 miles north of Eureka in Orick, California, 70-year-old Jim Hamm was attacked by a cougar, apparently as it crept up from behind. The Fortuna, California, man was accompanied by his 65-year-old wife Nell. Both were reported as under 5'6".
According to supervising Ranger Maury Morningstar, "The wife said she didn't see the lion until she heard her husband, and when she turned around, the lion was attacking her husband."
Nell Hamm said she first saw the lion when it had her husband's head in its jaws. The lion pounced on Jim Hamm near the end of a 10-mile hike. He was trailing his wife when the big cat attacked, pinning him face down on the trail. He didn't scream, Nell said. "It was a different, horrible plea for help, and I turned around, and by then the cat had wrestled Jim to the ground."
Nell Hamm did all the right things. She approached and screamed at the lion. Then she grabbed a 4-inch-wide log and began beating it on its back. "It wouldn't let go, no matter how hard I hit it," she said.
While Jim was trying to tear at the face of the cat, Nell says, "Jim was talking to me all through this, and he said, 'I've got a pen in my pocket. Get the pen and jab him in the eye.'" "So I got the pen and tried to put it in his eye, but it didn't want to go in as easy as I thought it would." When the pen bent and became useless, Nell Hamm went back to using the log. "That lion never flinched," she said. "I just knew it was going to kill him."
Finally, Nell slammed the log butt-end into the cat's snout. The lion had ignored her until then. At last, she had its attention. With blood on it's snout from her blow, the lion let go, stepped back, an stood glaring at her with its ears pinned back. "I thought he was going to attack me," she said. She continued to scream, waving the log, and then, thankfully, the cat slipped into the ferns and disappeared.
http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html
California Black Bear Public Safety Incidents
DFG has recorded 12 “bear attacks” since 1980.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/bear/bear_incidents.html
DR
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03/20/2009 07:26 PM
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Frank_O
Joined: 12/31/1999
Posts: 4298
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re: Predator and Prey
Pistols are for fighting your way to your rifle when you get caught in the crapper without it. Or for concealed carry.
One rifle, one planet, Holland's 375
Founding member of the "Iron Gang"
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03/20/2009 07:39 PM
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HD
Joined: 04/21/2007
Posts: 10241
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re: Predator and Prey
The predator hunters at http://www.californiapredatorsclub.com/index.php?showtopic=8893&pid=134327&st=30&#entry134327 seem to have a different perspective. Maybe things are changing in CA or maybe they just disagree. I would not want to rely on a knife or a 22-250 rifle against a big cat. No way. All these guys are packing pistols and they are out almost weekly. Granted, where you hunt would play a big part.
Check this guy's post:
Just had a mt lion come into our coyote calls monday, less than 20 ft above my partner with his rifle pointed in the wrong direction, of course my .45 semi was pointed in the right direction, so that's why I carry a handgun while coyote hunting.
Another guy wrote:
But there are so many lions around now days......My hunting partner called in another one last night. He turned on his light to see the ole cat looking down on him from a rock.
Since I am trying to work off excess fat, a little more weight might help. I bought a buncha non-lead ammo at Fowler's. They were the only ones who had decent inventory of it. Am shooting CorBon DPX. Spent 5.5 hrs at Tujunga shooting today...what fun!
On another note, i got to try the Buffalo Bore 45-70 Govt loads today. I was shooting 350 gr hot loadfs and they only dropped 1" at 200 yards! Amazing!!! Also learned that prone shooting em hurts, glad I got the bigger Harris bipod, sitting and shooting was much better!
Attn: Dental Shoppers
You can advertise to every dentist in Calif. for $20.
Visit www.DentalTrader.com
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03/20/2009 08:12 PM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16227
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re: Predator and Prey
WJW wrote:
I thought it was pretty much only officers or MP's that were carrying sidearms???
As far as knives...I know that everybody carries a knife (either a Ka-bar, Cold Steel, Gerber, Strider, or some such), but I haven't heard of anyone carrying a Bowie knife since the Alamo fell.
Bill
I didn't necessarily mean an actual "Bowie" knife Bill. The term "bowie knife has become generic over the last 180 odd years. Still, when you look at a KA-BAR's blade, what knife does it most resemble?
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
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03/20/2009 08:31 PM
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Baja Dreamer
Moderator
Hunting Reports / Shooting Sports
Joined: 02/09/2004
Posts: 16227
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re: Predator and Prey
HD wrote:
The predator hunters at http://www.californiapredatorsclub.com/index.php?showtopic=8893&pid=134327&st=30&#entry134327 seem to have a different perspective. Maybe things are changing in CA or maybe they just disagree. I would not want to rely on a knife or a 22-250 rifle against a big cat. No way. All these guys are packing pistols and they are out almost weekly. Granted, where you hunt would play a big part.
Check this guy's post:
Just had a mt lion come into our coyote calls monday, less than 20 ft above my partner with his rifle pointed in the wrong direction, of course my .45 semi was pointed in the right direction, so that's why I carry a handgun while coyote hunting.
Another guy wrote:
But there are so many lions around now days......My hunting partner called in another one last night. He turned on his light to see the ole cat looking down on him from a rock.
Since I am trying to work off excess fat, a little more weight might help. I bought a buncha non-lead ammo at Fowler's. They were the only ones who had decent inventory of it. Am shooting CorBon DPX. Spent 5.5 hrs at Tujunga shooting today...what fun!
Oh well. Since you are bound and determined to carry a sidearm on your very first hunting trip against the advice of people here who I would conservatively estimate have well over 100 years of field experience between them..............
.............maybe you should get one of these as well. You know, just to be on the safe side. Then you'll have all your bases covered
(This would be a great thing for the guy on your link who likes to lay a cocked and locked pistol in his lap while he's waiting for coyotes. )
FISH AND HUNT HARD!
Chris
This post edited by Baja Dreamer 03/20/2009
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