Discussion Board

Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

I did a little research on line at DFG and talked to a warden at the Fred hall show about using a spear gun with line attached to take game fish and he got the book out and said it was legal.

On the east coast it is legal to use a harpoon and it used to be legal here to use a harpoon but since was stopped to address permits to collect permit fees from comercial harpooners and seperate sportfishermen from commercial take etc.

I still belive I will need further investigation into the harpoon regs as well as spear fishing.

It's posibble with out looking that game fish could be caught below water with a spear gun but not above water ?

There might be a loop hole to take game fish with a spear gun if you have a line attached already as a means of gaffing.

Take in consideration the leader is on the spool but that means i have caught a swordfish locally in the 500 pound class.

If it is legal to take a game fish like Swordfish with a spear gun that would mean you could posibbly use it to target fining game fish.

This post is meant as a start of research.

03/06/2010 09:52 PM

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

Opens up a can of worms. Can I use a compound bow????? if the fish is attached to hook and line. Can I use a taser????

What happened to the rules of fair chase? Bring the fish to the boat and gaff it. Leave the Harpoons,spear guns, bows, tasers and shotguns home.

Just my humble opinion.

Mark
2325 Wa Pacificskiff

This post edited by Mojomizer 03/07/2010

03/07/2010 01:38 AM

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

Mojomizer wrote:
Opens up a can of worms. Can I use a compund bow????? if the fish is attached to hook and line. Can I use a taser????

What happened to the rules of fair chase? Bring the fish to the boat and gaff it. Leave the Harpoons,spear guns, bows, tasers and shotguns home.

Just my humble opinion.

Mark
2325 Wa Pacificskiff

I will hold off on the taser lol

Here are the IGFA rules

http://www.igfa.org/PDF/InternationalAnglingRules09.pdf

IGFA states rules for fair play no harpoons lance(knifes) and belive they are trying to keep the fight fair.

As a side note spear harpoon history goes back to the 1600 here.

There is a vast difference in angling sportfishing and then dispatching a large potentially life threatening fish in a quick safe manner after a fair fight when one decides to take the game for food rather than for submitting for a potintual world record.

Not that the spear gun is sporting in most cases and in consideration of the sport of angling IGFA rules are to attempt to set guide lines as to what constitutes a fair fight.

Personally i belive after reviewing the IGFA rules that if I was to target and bring a swordfish to leader in the 200 pound and up class
alone if i used a spear gun attached to with line as my gaff would be in line with sporting guidelines not rules for world records rather a fish captured for consumption.

The thought behind this for myself is having a boat in gear alone with rod in hand and spear gun in the other with the swordfish just out of gaff reach after bringing it up after being hooked 900' plus deep.

If i was going to target the fish for a world record i would hold the rod and gaff the fish and can and have done it but getting severail gaffs targetting a large fish can be a pain especially around a harness rod attached two hands on gaff eyes off the fish to retrieve another gaff and get a lateral attack from a pissed off predator that potentially greatly out weighs you fighting for it's life.

The potintual advantage is being abble to shoot the fish with a kill shot to the head when alone targeting the fish for consumption.

Targeting it for IGFA i would bring a video and witness as well as help and have done so.

One should consider IFGA rules are a guideline to sporting while angling and are used for submitting world records.

I belive a fish that potentially out weighs me and has a weapon sword attached it is prolific in using leaves a lot of room for fair play at the end game especially when fishing alone and is going to be consumed not submitted for record already beaten fairly once the leader is on the spool that can only be 20' posibbly in gaff range.

Targeting large predators with weapons attached can easily be lethal especial when targetting them alone in adverse conditions like night fishing and being out for days in rough seas maneuvering the boat forward to keep the fish where you want it alone and fighting the fish alone and laddering it then gaffing it securing it tail roping it then getting it on deck can be very dangerous and difficult again leaving alot of room for sporting in the fair fight.

At some point it is necessary to use a means of makeing sure the predator is dead for sure with out question.

That is where IGFA allows bats to beat the fish, ever crush the skull of a large predator ? not easy and i have had to crush them hitting them over and over to stop them from freaking out as hard as i could.

Much easier to stick two barrels of a shot gun against their head and pull the trigger or a bang stick but not good for record submission not that it's not fair just it's to hard to figure out if they shot the fish after it first ate the bait etc.

At some point in varying conditions the decision has to be made to be as safe as posibble given your environment or your sport could cost you your life.

The Tuna Club in Avalon Catalina is where the IGFA rules originated.

Many clubs have varying rules in consideration of releasing fish and what constitutes a legal catch.

We targeted a 1950 line class record and caught and released a 90 pound marlin on 4 thread after touching the leader.

This post edited by Keith Poe 03/07/2010

03/07/2010 03:17 AM

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

Fishing alone for top predators with boat in gear is a extreme risk to start with. Even with a Auto Tether: http://www.madmariner.com/tip/040808 offshore currents and drift can be much faster then one can swim. Hopefully you clip youself to the boat in some manner.

Not trying to be the safety police or even the rules commitee on fair take. We fish these types of fish for the challenge. I believe Swordfish is one of the pinnicles of recreational fishing. My personal feeling leadering the fish and applying a flying gaff part of the challenge. Alone on such an endeavor? I guess I am a wuss.

First we must figure out how to hook one Toungue

Hope you get one

Mark
2325 Wa Pacificskiff

03/07/2010 08:10 AM

mcrae

Joined: 01/31/2008
Posts: 132

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

I think your best bet is to first check the state laws where you live. Secondary would be the IGFA rules and finally common sense and what is practical for you.

03/07/2010 12:22 PM

WJW

Joined: 04/30/1998
Posts: 10895

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

I don't think you or that Fish and Game officer are correct at least so far as the rules go for landing billfish.

To my recollection you can't even have a speargun on the boat when fishing for marlin or swordfish...much less use one in place of a gaff.

Edit: Yep...you'll just need to fight that fish a bit longer and get him to gaff.

"Spears, harpoons and bow and arrow fishing tackle may be used for taking all varieties of skates, rays and sharks, except white sharks. Such gear may not be possessed or used within 100 yards of the mouth of any stream in any ocean waters north of Ventura County, nor aboard any vessel on any day or on any trip when broadbill swordfish or marlin have been taken. Bow and arrow fishing tackle may be used to take finfish other than giant (black) sea bass, garibaldi, gulf grouper, broomtail grouper, trout, salmon, striped bass, broadbill swordfish and white shark" (Fish and Game Code Section 28.95).

Bill

P.S.: No offense Keith, but I don't know what you are talking about concerning a 1950 Tuna Club record. Maybe that's not what you meant, but there was no "4 thread" linen line recognized by the Tuna Club. There was three thread, and there was six thread...and on up to 27 thread. But no 4 thread. And there are no catch and release line class records. There are T&R buttons, but those are given out anytime the T&R is done. There are several every year. Maybe you're thinking of a different club.

If Marlin ate puppies instead of mackerel, we'd all have kennels instead of bait tanks.

This post edited by WJW 03/07/2010

03/07/2010 08:00 PM

phucket

Joined: 09/17/2006
Posts: 53

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

keith for a guy that says he practices so much catch and release and conservation (tagging) why would you even bring up such a bone head idea such as a speargun... sometimes i think you write on here just to see your own words,,,,, chad

03/07/2010 08:23 PM

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

This is a discussion board "No Bad Ideas Here". But something of a personal attack is un-warranted.

I too believe in catch and release, but if I get lucky and have the opportunity I'll put X's on that fishes eye's. First one and some to fill the freezer. Eat what you kill always in moderation Shades

Mark
2325 Wa Pacificskiff

03/07/2010 09:39 PM

WJW

Joined: 04/30/1998
Posts: 10895

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

Me too.

I've been on board when six or seven swordfish have been baited and I've thrown bait on them myself three times....and it's not happened yet. If and when it finally does, the fish is going to get a flying gaff in him if I have anything to say about it. And if I'm single handed, unless the fish is a dink, I'm calling for help to get someone on board who knows how to swing a gaff. A single handed marlin is fine, but swordfish are too tough and bite too infrequently to voluntarily take single handed. JMO

Bill

If Marlin ate puppies instead of mackerel, we'd all have kennels instead of bait tanks.

This post edited by WJW 03/08/2010

03/08/2010 09:03 AM

Joined: 12/31/1999
Posts: 1237

Lake

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

Keith brought up one point that really needs to be taken seriously. Swordfish are very dangerous at boatside. Putting a fixed gaff in one is also very dangerous. In some of his videos posted previously you can see that they always gaffed the fish near the tail. Someone who gets a once in a lifetime shot at one isn't likely to be thinking straight and a fixed gaff near the head of a large fish could be deadly. That's why we used harpoons in FL. I never threw them, just used them like you would a flying gaff.

03/08/2010 10:28 AM

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

Seeing a fish like this will pump up the adrenalin. Being solo with it would also raise the pucker factor by 10x.

Everyone probably has seen it. Still amazes me. Lake has it right. How many people are prepared to land one? Are they prepared or realize what happens if they gaff a green fish?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DkXg9gJCV0&feature=related

Never understood CaDFG regulations on harpoon gaffs or throw nets for bait.

Regards
Mark
2325 Wa Pacificskiff

This post edited by Mojomizer 03/08/2010

03/08/2010 03:31 PM

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

Guys there is another factor here not brought up yet.

What many are not aware of is when a large predator is brought to gaff there are some fundamental problems involved.

I watched the monster shark series(may be wrong on the name) of our local shark fishermen and was amazed at how few were addressing the take of large predators properly.

I felt that marlin guys would be watching thinking poorly of their skills.

Ok here is the deal most anglers are not aware of I learned the hard way long before I ever pulled on a blue marlin or swordfish while on large makos off the west end and Osbourn nearly 20 years ago.

When a large fish that out weighs you easily many times is brought to leader it's like a runner after a 25-K run.

They are desperate to keep breathing and brought to a dead boat it's like putting your hand over the runners mouth and saying no more air.

The reaction is explosive they will run right under the boat in the prop game over.

This is where most guys always fail.

The key in being a good leader man is not massive strength rather judging your prey and responding appropriately although it some times does require massive strength in appropriate amounts.

The predator will respond to the blows it is delivered like a cornered fighter.

When a large predator is beat for the most part once it decides the boat might not be so bad after all if the predator calms down from attacking the boat they will start to swim along nicely beside it with nominal presure on the leader at boat side as the fish swims forward breathing resting as it's been worn out but still poses large amounts of adrenaline easily tailing you billing you of chewing you from inside or out side.

The presure is critical on the leader assure the dog it's going to be OK the pack leader wont hurt you were cool just be cool and i will then place the tag or kill it when it's in range.

When attempting to do this alone in a forward moving boat it is even more difficult as a result of placement.

When there are others like a leader man involved and gaffer during stand up on a skiff space is usually an issue.

It's usually a good idea to get the angler forward then the leader man steps in then the gaffer steps in then the second gaffer or two at once as the boat is moving forward with them stepping in in order in a line bow to stern.

Doing all the jobs alone steering the boat down swell at the right speed fighting the fish leading the fish with rod tip and gaffing can be an issue especially on a pissed off predator not used to takeing any crap from anything usually on the killing predator end looking for a target.

This presents many problems some being forward towards the bow to bring a forward moving swimming predator in tag/gaffing range.

Then getting the gaff while eyes on the predator holding firm on the presure watching for them to make a run under the boat and diverting actually reaching back on a long large predator to get a shot where you want it then being ready to get the boat out of gear as it explodes with all it's fear and adrenaline realised and starts it's attempt to free it's self in it's most powerful attempt yet in your face.

The bend in the rod while standing forward reaching back with a gaff is not easy especially with a potentially uncooperative predator that poses massive amounts of strength that only came to the boat in the first place to check out what the deal is can be the end game but for who ? when the predator of predators become in target range of their prey.

The success will only come at the price of readiness in the war of predators.

I lost a 500 plus class swordfish that was at gaff once not being prepared.

I had a long discussion with my wife the other day about that swordfish.

She told me i was wrong it did not come from under the boat it came from the side.

She said when it first came up I was getting some more tags for the mako we had going.

She said the bill was longer than the stern was wide as well as the body.

She got to get a really good look at it as I was getting rid of the two makos and throwing all the tackle around getting the 80STW out and baiting up my last half dead mackerel on 360 wire.

I got to see it as it came back up the chum slick and sat in the 500 watts of light as it ate the mackerel and could tell by the size it was massive and then turned the water around it foaming white.

The fish never got far I buttoned down the drag and got it to the surface and realised I was not prepared to deal with a fish of that size going crazy at boat side as I almost broke the 655xxH as I have severail times before and well as broken many roller guides my point being the amount of pressure.

The hook then finally came out going past my head very closely at a very high rate of speed as I was asking my buddy who was inebriated if he was sure it was a blue marlin or not as we thought it was a swordfish having never targeted them before.

The fish was lost to not being prepared in many perspectives.

I looked at the basics after of marlin swordfish since at that time i had never caught either and saw the clear differences.

The bill at the head of that fish was very wide and the blue marlin idea came from it was it was an El nino year and the guy on board who had caught severail before in one day in kona who was inebriated.

Well lesson learned and being prepared is everything and part of the reason i fish alone in this learning curve as few want to fish for days on a skiff with few comforts or catch and i do not want to be responsible for their safety.

03/08/2010 04:25 PM

Wils

Joined: 03/21/2007
Posts: 13508

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

When you talked with the DFG guy, did you use the term "gamefish"?
or did you specifically ask about harpooning marlin and swordfish at leader?

using a spearfishermans' spear for our basic and generic gamefish (yt, tuna, wsb, halibut, etc) due to a lost or somebody-forgot-it-in-the-garage gaff can easily fall under "the spirit" of the sportfishing regulations.
using a harpoon at leader for marlin and/or swordfish, IMO, does not fall under "the spirit" of the sportfishing regulations.

03/08/2010 06:43 PM

WJW

Joined: 04/30/1998
Posts: 10895

re: Gaffing fish at leader just out of reach with Spear gun

I've never done it but I've know plenty of guys who have...the deal with landing one of those is that you need a big barbed flying gaff with the rope tied to a cleat so that you can bury that meat hook in the fish and let it die before you do anything else.

Trying to land a big fish like that with a stick gaff is insane unless the fish is basically dead from exhaustion.

Bill

If Marlin ate puppies instead of mackerel, we'd all have kennels instead of bait tanks.

03/08/2010 07:18 PM