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Discussion Starter #1
Here it is...my new kayak net...



The nets one of my designs: a redesign of this net I made last year using the same netting:



It's a "working" prototype: I've been playing with for while.

The first net had too big of an opening which produced too much drag in the water.

This one has the same size opening as a Danielson cone but the top ring is an inch and a half higher, and the base is only 28 inches across vrs 34 inches on the Danielson net and 36 inches on the Promar net.

Since the base is smaller it has a lot less drag coming up through the water. It pulls easier and faster then either the Promar or the Danielson net.

Like the Promar cone, my net folds down for flat storage.


I don't know how their works but this is my design. It has three pieces of pivoting tubing that that turn on the 1/4 inch stainless hoop ring. The bridle is made from three lengths of 250 pound Mono leader. It runs down through the tube legs and it's tied to the Bottom 3/8 hoop.

Basically to get the hoop to stand up and pull into shape you just have to pull up on the bridle.





Once it's up you just have to make sure the knots go up into the legs and it's ready to use.





I've pretty much got this one worked out.

It's a great net. It sinks like a stone, pulls easy as Promars original smaller nets, and catches more bugs then they do. I still have to take the older prototypes back apart and replace the tubes with stainless, but a that I'm done with my five net set.

From playing around I've pretty much figured out that the crucial distance in a cone net is not the diameter but the entrance or top rings distance and height ratio to the bug.

Most bugs are lost one of two ways in a basket style net.

Either the bug flips over the ring before it gets high enough to block his intial jump or climbs out on the way up.

So the advantage of larger Basket style net compaired to a smaller one is the ring edge is simply further from the bug at the start of the pull.

Conical nets do not have the same constraints

With a conical net the top ring is already above the bug: the idea is it's high enough to make it hard for the bug to initally flip out.

It's all about exit angle.

When the exit angle is too steep for the bug to make on his first flip he undershoots the exit and ends up stuck backwards against the net wall or downward facing side. If he keeps flipping he just drives himself deeper into the net.


The crucial distance is then not diameter on a conical net but the entrance ring distance and height ratio to the bug.


Here's the old style cone geometry compaired to my new net:



The larger the top ring diameter or the lower the ring, the better the angle is for swimming out. So the trick is to have a relitively small opening high enough above the bugs head that he can't make the angle when he tries to kick out.

I've not used the Promars but I have a few Danielson conical nets.

The D cones are made like traps. I think the guys who designed them thought that lobsters would climb in, feed, then not be able to find their way out. I don't believe that at all..... . Crabs...maybe.... but not lobsters.

I've watched bug feed in my Danielson nets with my IR camera and once they feed they get out fast.

The Danielson nets work great but my three gripes are.....

One: I think the top ring is too low and that bigger bugs sit on top and feed without getting in the net . Two: they hard to pull because they are too big and too heavy. Three they take up a lot of room in a boat and are impossible to carry on a kayak.

The plus side you don't have to pull them that fast because once you have a bug in them it's very hard for them to get out.

I have not used a new Promar but I can tell just by looking they are an improvement in two ways. One the top ring is too high for bugs to perch on and feed and two: they fold for storage.

Still they are huge, heavy and I bet they are a biiiiittttch to pull. :7

One thing for certain: Now that Promars come out with a new cone net there is no doubt that cone nets are here to stay. ;-)

Cones are ideal for kayak because it's hard to pull very fast when your sitting down. Unfortunately the current ones commercially available are just too hard to pull.

Here's one more pic a standard cone on top of my cone.



You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why mine pulls easier, and with it's higher ring it should catch more and larger bugs.


I have no plans to market these nets right now but they could be marketed. I think it's pretty much the ideal net for Kayaking.

Seems to work so far:



Tight lines, Jim
 

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Excellent post and pictures Jim! :7

I'm sure individuals and manufacturers alike are taking copious notes.

Thank You for taking the time to put the post together!

Oh btw, "Donaldson" should be "Danielson". :p

John.
Parker 2320 'FloMar'.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
>Excellent post and pictures Jim! :7
>
>I'm sure individuals and manufacturers alike are taking
>copious notes.
>
>Thank You for taking the time to put the post together!
>
>Oh btw, "Donaldson" should be "Danielson". :p

Thanks John. I've never been too good with names. You know what's funny about that net in relation to you is both you and I learned to hoop with it. ;-)

It's one of Randalls old green nets that you used to hoop with.

The small ring, netting are unaltered stock from the original net and the bottom ring is a resized outer hoop from the original net.

My other designs have involved a lot of tie and twine work but this one is sized in such a ratio it utilises the original hoops netting with out any alterations.

Jim
 

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You know, the BEST part about JIM's design, is that the bottom of the net doubles as the BBQ Grill to cook them bugs on! But how do ya keep the charcoal frum burnin thru the plastic boat?? THAT'll be the kicker right there! LOL!



JB
 

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John,
Are you the same John Butler that used to work at Solomon back in the 90's. I used to work there with a John Butler that liked to fish.

Kurt
 

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Pretty neat..you might want to determine from F&G what the maximum height is that they will allow before they deem it to be a trap and not a hoop..I think it is around 6" in height..
 

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My understanding about the DFG regs is that there really is NO description of a "legal" hoopnet...they wrote up regs last year but they failed to go through because of other inconsistencies in the regs...I am pretty sure that they have their sights on conical nets overall with the thought that they are not hoop"nets", but hoop"traps"...So, right now, the conical nets all fall into the infamous "gray zone"....what happens in the near future remains to be seen...

Andale
 

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Kurt,

I have no idea what - who you are talking about . . . oh wait a minute . . you mean Solomon the Chinese company up in City of Industry??? Where you used to sit in the same little office/room as me and we went to Ohio to make a sales call about 1x9 & 4x9 simms, but using a 1x8 and 4x8 configuration using THEIR parody generator on the motherboard to off-set the memory cost?? We went to Vegas and shared a dump of a room downtown because David was too cheap to put us up someplace nice for Comdex?? (of course he stayed at all the nice places with his buddies)

Guess what? I'm still there!! (to use a Sam Kennison term:) OH OHHHHH!!! This March will be 15 #&$%*%#O&$ years! Can you believe that? I think I hold the world's record for a round-eye working for a Chinese company.

So what are you doing these days? Still seeing chichi??

Well, I had no idea you fished. Cuz you probably didn't back then huh?

So what's the haps? (Guess we better take this someplace else?? - Sorry guys)


JB
 

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Joe,
I don't have a copy, I got the info from a friend who is a DFG guy...I'm sorry because this admittedly makes this hearsay, but I am confident of the general content, the details I can't be certain of...I guess we will have to wait and see...I think that the fact that there is so much more hoopnetting going on, that the vagueness of the regs will start to disappear, whether or not that will include legislating against conical nets remains to be seen...

Andale
 

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>Kurt,
>
>I have no idea what - who you are talking about . . . oh wait
>a minute . . you mean Solomon the Chinese company up in City
>of Industry??? Where you used to sit in the same little
>office/room as me and we went to Ohio to make a sales call
>about 1x9 & 4x9 simms, but using a 1x8 and 4x8 configuration
>using THEIR parody generator on the motherboard to off-set the
>memory cost??

Yea, thats the tight a$$ David I used to work for.


We went to Vegas and shared a dump of a room
>downtown because David was too cheap to put us up someplace
>nice for Comdex?? (of course he stayed at all the nice places
>with his buddies)

The only thing as bad as that room was you snoring through the megaphone that night and when I finally got to sllep it was time to wake up.
>
>Guess what? I'm still there!! (to use a Sam Kennison term:) OH
>OHHHHH!!! This March will be 15 #&$%*%#O&$ years! Can you
>believe that? I think I hold the world's record for a
>round-eye working for a Chinese company.

You don't actually still work there? What is David trying to pass off these days?
>
>So what are you doing these days? Still seeing chichi??

Chi Chi who? That F#^%^$*& B*$^$! No, we broke up many years ago.

I now have a much younger wonderful wife who has given me 3 children.
>
>Well, I had no idea you fished. Cuz you probably didn't back
>then huh?

I have fished my entire life. I didn't go as much back then. Don't you remember taking me, David, his wife and kids, and the rep from Texas Instruments out on your boat fishing out in Long Beach Harbor. I remember we filled up 2 buckets of macs and David took them all home so Jennifer could make him mac soup. I can't believe they actually eat those things!
>
>So what's the haps? (Guess we better take this someplace
>else?? - Sorry guys)

Call me when you get some time, catch up on old times.

My cell is: 714-697-7128

Kurt
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Here's my take...

For about four years now I've been hearing that any day they are going to outlaw conical nets.

You know what?...It's not happened.

This year Promar the biggest opponent of Conical nets put theirs out. To me this is a pretty good indication the nets are going to be around for a while.

Here's their new net....



It's bigger and taller then mine. If anything the Danielson of the three is most trap like, but all three nets are not traps, though they will all outperform old standard basket type hoops.

If they change the regs they change the regs but I seriously doubt we'll see anything in the near future.


Jim
 

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I have to agree with you on that Jim...luckily we have bureaucratic inertia on our side...oh, and for the record, I put a 20# limit into my new promar conicals last night...

Andale
 

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Discussion Starter #17
>I have to agree with you on that Jim...luckily we have
>bureaucratic inertia on our side...oh, and for the record, I
>put a 20# limit into my new promar conicals last night...
>
>Andale

No surprised here...they are nice nets.

A freind of mine designed that net and we are kinda on the same page..

Too big for a kayak IMO but some guys are using them. It's a great net if you have a puller, or for hooping from a boat in general.

I'd own some but I can make basically the same net from some of my old style 36's.

I'm seriously considering altering nets for people for a while. I can make the parts up and hire some of my Bum artist friends for cheap labor.

It's a shame not to do something with the old style nets if your going to upgrade ;-)

Good luck, Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #19
>I knew you were on the payroll. N :eek: D

I could use some sort of Payroll...LOL... but.... No: you are wrong John. I'm not working for Promar or anyone else. I know the guy who helped Promar with their net that's about it.



You know.. it's funny but sales guys associated with Promar have contacted me twice about meeting with the guys in charge but both times it didn't happen. Seems like everyone I know is some kind of Prostaffer or something these days. I swear it makes me feel like I'm missing out.

As to the net mods....Several board members have contacted me about making mods to their nets but it would be hard to figure out a way where it would be worth the effort. It would have to be more favor then business.

Promar and other net manufacture guys wouldn't like to see someone doing modifications that recycle old nets because it would cut into their sales. They just want to see people buying new nets...In contrast I just hate to see the old nets going to waste when people buy the new ones.

I've looked long and hard at the net thing as a potential business model and it would be hard to beat Promar at it with their size and connections in China.

If I had to guess I'd imagine the guys at Promar don't like seeing posts like this one.

They don't want people altering nets, they want people buying new ones.


Jim
 

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should be illegal

damn nice design..if i didn't see you guys reciting the dfg rules, i'd swear it was illegal........and should be, it really goes against the 'spirit' of the law as written....i would expect things to be clarified in the next few years...untill then, happy hunting , jim
 
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